Kim Kardashian West’s journey to becoming a mother of four kids—North, Saint, Chicago, and Psalm—hasn’t been without its difficulties. During her first two pregnancies, Kardashian West experienced placenta accreta, a condition in which the placenta is stuck during birth. She then chose to use surrogates for her third and fourth children. Now, Kardashian West reveals that welcoming her third child, her daughter Chicago, came with the help of an unexpected resource just for surrogacies.

In an interview with divorce lawyer Laura Wasser for her podcast, All’s Fair, Kim Kardashian West shared she used a “surrogate therapist” to assist with Chicago’s birth, E! News reports.

The surrogate therapist, as Kardashian West explained it, acted as a mediator between herself and the surrogate who carried her daughter, Chicago. It was one of several professionals who came on board to ensure the surrogacy went smoothly: “You get your surrogate attorney, you get your surrogate broker and then the broker recommended that we use a therapist that would communicate with me first and then communicate with her and kind of be our liaison,” Kardashian West said.

With the surrogate therapist on her team, Kardashian West was able to ensure she and her surrogate were comfortable at every point during the pregnancy, from the early months to the delivery. She says they discussed “[t]hings like going through the birthing plan, so if anything was uncomfortable she would be that buffer to say, ‘This is who I want in the room. What are you comfortable with? How does this work?'”

As the surrogate’s pregnancy progressed, Kardashian West noted that she and her surrogate were able to communicate without the therapist’s assistance. “Towards the end we got close enough where we could communicate really without that,” Kim recalled. “[The therapist] would suggest, ‘Hey, I think you guys should communicate once a week through text, maybe on Mother’s Day. She’s a mother as well. Maybe get her a massage or something that’s appropriate for her to pamper.'”

Kardashian West previously has been open about the difficulties she faced during the decision to use surrogates. “Anyone that says or thinks it is just the easy way out is just completely wrong,” she told Entertainment Tonight before Chicago was born. “I think it is so much harder to go through it this way, because you are not really in control. And, you know, obviously you pick someone that you completely trust and that you have a good bond and relationship with, but it is still…knowing that I was able to carry my first two babies and not, you know, my baby now, it’s hard for me. So it’s definitely a harder experience than I anticipated just in the control area.”

Giving birth, Kardashian West said, was one of the most painful experiences of her life. So giving up control over the experience, however difficult, was a choice she stood by. “I am blessed that I am able to do this, and technology is the way that it is that we can do this,” she said.

Before Kardashian West revealed she was expecting her fourth child, Psalm, via surrogate, she told Elle that four kids would likely be her limit. “I don’t think I could handle more than that,” she said. “My time is spread really thin. And I think it’s important that in all couples, the mom gives the husband as much attention as the kids.”

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